turkey sense she's been roasting that one next to her for a few years now. >> and i do a good job. seriously. a saint. "morning joe" starts right now. love it or hate it black friday has become a major event in america. so much so that it now even has its own holiday special. >> sir, shouldn't we say grace? >> i'll do it. today we give thanks for the food on our plates, for happiness and health, and for the amazing low prices at our favorite chain stores where we will stampede and trammell one another to save a few bucks on cheap crap we will give to people we don't even like that much, amen. >> do not get in my way tomorrow or evi'll cut you amen. >> if you touch him i'll shove an ipad right up your [ bleep ].

>> good morning. it's wednesday, november 21st. can you believe it? it's here. welcome to "morning joe." aren't you all excited about thanksgiving? >> yesp. >> with us on set we have msnbc and "time" magazine senior political analyst mark halperin and the -- >> what is that? >> what are you doing? >> i'm trying to use all the things available to me from starbucks. >> i wish you wouldn't. >> yeah. >> making stadium seating. >> we have the chairman of deutsch incorporated donnie deutsch. >> i love when i'm the grownup on the set. >> i broke my glass of wine. >> you did not look comfortable around the kitchen. >> i'm great in the kitchen. >> i'm guessing -- >> what? >> that was never your strong suit, just a guess. >> telling her two chefs what she wants and how she wants it done. >> when thomas roberts sees what you've done over there, he's going to be angry. >> why? >> you made a mess of the studio. >> there's wine all over the

floor. >> can we get a shot of this wine. >> lewis was running off and you -- >> i needed him to leave. >> looked like a proct tolgs gone back. >> oh, well. >> you have to love "the new york post". >> a horrible picture of hamas dragging people through the street, killing them. but then you opened it up and the main story is you were talking about scarsdale high school, smoking crack with hookers. >> gosh. >> i don't mean to laugh -- >> but you're going to laugh. it's "the new york post." >> every time you think you can't outdo the news. >> hookers and coke. >> scarsdale high school, one of the top high schools in the country, upscale suburb. >> yeah. >> very stressed around education, hookers and coke for the dean. >> incredible picture of the guy, though. >> a great picture of him. and why he's doing coke with hookers? >> because he likes -- i would

suspect, willie, i'm not an expert, but i expect he would say why not. >> it defies linear explanation. >> coke and hookers, two tastes that go great together. donny deutsch told me that once. >> anne hathaway also on page three having no regrets for the oscar thing, whatever that was. yeah. >> if you continue to page 6 on the post -- >> page 5, mercedes mistress is slammed. over we're told. >> oh. >> nikki minaj has a new fragrance. >> where's this? >> look-alike bottle. page 6 which is actually page 13. the post wants to keep you on your toes. on the next page on page 14 -- >> skip over page 8, the post is now calling the kelley sisters the new kardashians and pictures of them shooting automatic rifles. >> that's broadwell. >> that's an insult to the

kardashians if you don't mind my saying. >> the kardashians never brought down the cia's top guy. >> mika, do you know who pat concernen is? >> yeah. >> reads the paper on the air. incredible programming. >> yeah. >> who would do that? >> homage, the whole episode. >> page 14, that is mitt romney. >> that's a strange picture of mitt. here's mitt romney. not strange. i don't know. >> didn't he get the low sock memo of the early 2000s? >> he's very leggy. >> chasing him around. >> okay. >> what else do we have in news? >> we have the economy. we'll begin there now at 4 past the hour. >> we're going to keep reading the post. go ahead. >> the markets look to rebound after stocks finished relatively flat yesterday following a new warning from the central bank about the fiscal cliff. speaking to the economic club of new york, fed chair ben bernanke urged lawmakers to reach a deal

to avoid the automatic spending cuts and tax increases. he said going over the fiscal cliff would pose a substantial risk to the economy. according to a new study the fiscal cliff could give 90% of americans new tax bills when the bush tax rates and some by president obama would both end. the working poor would be among the hardest hit. a tax policy center analysis showed a married couple making about $30,000 a year would on average go from receiving a $15 tax credit to owing $1400. >> wow. >> yeah. that's probably a reason to try and get something done? >> maybe we will. maybe we will. >> you would think. >> yeah. or maybe we can just talk about 2016. >> we could do that as well. how are you doing, willie? >> i'm doing well. >> good. just two weeks after the longest -- >> thanks for stopping by. >> doing well. >> you know, just two weeks after the longest, most

expensive and exhausting election in u.s. history eyes are turning to 2016 as speculation begins over the next batch of candidates lining up to run for president. >> who could that be? i know it's going to be a surprise. >> i know it is too. we're moving past these dynasties. >> exactly. >> of ruled politics for decades. republican up and comer jeb bush jr. says he would love to see his dad run for president, and rand paul says he's going to follow in his pop's footsteps too and hillary is going to run too. do you have to be related to somebody who has been president of the united states or run for president of the united states to actually do that yourself? >> i think that's what makes the names. here's jeb jr. >> your dad going to run for president? >> i don't know. no comment. i certainly hope so. >> which is it, i don't know or

no comment? >> i think it's the i hope so. >> you said, i don't know, no comment, and i hope so, which are all kind of contradictory. >> give me the full loaf of bread right there. >> word is out of florida jeb is lining up for 2016. >> another bush. jeb jr. weighed on fellow floridian marco rubio another potential candidate. this week rubio passed on a question about the age of lan net earth calling it one of the greatest mysteries. we talked about that yesterday. jeb jr. admitted it whas a strange question but called rubio's response, quote, a kind of head-scratching type of answer. >> it was kind of head-scratching. >> it was. we talked about it yesterday. >> i don't know, man. >> he said i'm not a scientist, man. >> but he is an expert on hip-hop. >> is he ever. he went deep in the interview about hip-hop, went back to the '80s, '90s, africa. marco rubio knows his stuff, not that that's going to be a key

voting issue? 2016 but impressive. >> he's showed to me he's not going to get the new republicans. when romney came out with the phone call abouts the gifts and jindal was boom, no, this is not the way to talk, not who we are, even then he was straddling the fence. i'm not sure what he said. if mr. rubio -- >> did he use that voice? >> what voice? >> well -- >> that's really not -- that's really not how -- >> frank gorshin. >> people who talk like that do not own a key to the future of the republican party. >> msnbc tells me the place for politics and here i am trying to shift the conversation. >> to what? >> heavy political analysis and it just will not -- the tenor today will not allow that to happen. i can feel it. >> i disagree with that. >> i don't see it happening. i see voices, i hear voices. >> joe, back on the jeb bush thing, though. >> yeah. >> we know the attack on him.

we can't go back to the bush years. they've started that. don't you think if you took his name off, he's an ideal candidate, from florida, moderate on some issues, immigration. >> yes. >> he would be the guy if you took that last name away. >> yes he would. that's great irony back when he first ran for governor people said he ran for governor if his last name wasn't bush. he would have run for president and won the nomination this year if his last name wasn't bush. but, you know, americans are going to have to decide, do they want the, you know -- do they want the 41st president to be a bush, 43rd president to be a bush and 45th president to be a bush? >> can i say something about this rubio thing? >> i would love for you too. >> one area where democrats are far ahead of republicans right now. >> science? >> science and technology. >> no. doing this thing democrats failed to do in 2000 to stop george w. bush which is early on using the left wing freak show to define anyone who is thinking

for running for president as quickly and possible in negative terms. they're just all over this rubio thing. they want to control his public image in a negative way they did it this cycle too. they were after romney early on and doing it now. as a matter of just pure politics very effective because rubio's not full time thinking about running for president. he's out there dabbling. people on the left will be defining anyone who looks like they might be strong in four years. >> he dabbled pretty strongly. he went to iowa right after the election and his name's out front and he ought to be able to answer a question, how old is the earth. >> he should. if your name is a possibility in four years, any slip up like that, you're going to be -- they're going to be all over you. >> why is he so cautious? he is cautious to a fault. there were screwups during the campaign. he was overly cautious. romney's screw uplast week, he was overly cautioned. asked about science, he was overly cautious.

if we ask him his middle name will he tell us what it is or be overly cautious? why is this guy walking on egg shells? we had a nominee that did that. >> he's a confident but smart enough to know he's out of his experience and comfort range on some of this stuff right now. >> so he didn't answer the question of how old the earth was, why? he thought it would upset some evangelical voters in iowa? >> didn't want to take a risk. look at him and christie. christie was a prosecutor. this is a guy who made decisions went after bad guys and is a very, very task-oriented job. versus a guy who is a state senator, not the same kind of stuff. what does he really bring to the table at this point? that's your answer. >> speaking of bringing things to the table, mika, let's talk about chris christie. he brought something to the table here that some of us missed. >> he was doing so many things at once. >> t.j., can you get this? he's multitasking moving so fast

and talking about how people want politicians that do a lot of different things. >> right. >> do you have the david letterman thing? you have to drive over to cbs to get it? >> he does. >> hey, we got to go get the beta. t.j. needs to get in the van and go to cbs and get the beta. >> let mika tell us first and then -- >> i was trying to eat up time because -- >> we don't need it. here it is, go. watch this. >> did you see him yesterday? he was testifying before a senate subcommittee. did you see this? we have exclusive footage. here's governor chris christie. >> give you the republican governors. and one of the reasons why you have 30 republican governors in america and the only organization to add republican strength, senate lost members, we lost the presidency, we went up from 29 to 30 republican governors because people see us getting things done. like this. getting things done for people. and that's what you have to

emphasize and talk about. i don't think this is a core for the sofcle examination of what we have to go through. this is about doing our jobs. >> he was on "morning joe." that's where he was. >> that's great. >> wow. a lot of things at the same time. >> it was distracting but he is so good at multitasking that i just -- i was locked in those eyes and i'll tell you what, mika, people in the new york city area were locked in on those eyes too. >> yes. the northeast recovers from hurricane sandy new jersey governor chris christie is receiving praise for his handling of the storm. according to a quinnipiac university poll, 36% of new york city voters say christie did the best job responding to the disaster. 22% say president obama's response was strongest. not everyone is pleased with christie's performance. a "new york times" report suggests some republicans still resent the popular governor for doing his job. they say the governor's praise of the president hurt mitt romney's chance on election day.

romney advisers refer to data showing a high number of undecided voters chose president obama at the last minute citing his handling of sandy as the major reason. >> come on, man. >> i want to say quickly about christie, how he's acting, what you're supposed to do running for president, him going on "snl" last weekend becoming part of the culture, being loose, making fun of himself is the complete opposite of what rubio is doing. that's the way you run for president. you don't run for president. you become part of the daily. he's already there. >> that poll by the way was in new york city. >> right. >> so they have the governor of a different state they voted by a three to one margin over their own people. >> most people in manhattan don't like. >> i don't know that's true. as a new jersey native -- >> i'm just saying that's shocking. put the numbers back up again. new yorkers say he more than doubled andrew cuomo. >> tripled their own mayor. >> tripled their own mayer. >> joe is thinking of the david paterson imitation from

"saturday night live." >> new jersey. >> he's got a 90% approval rating and cuomo has an 85%. as far as the absolute numbers. new yorkers, even if they don't like christie, they respect him. i've turned around on the guy. >> everybody seems to. you have. >> turned around on a positive way. >> yeah. i mean -- be. >> "snl" has. >> this guy is too much of a bully to ever capture the national heart if you will, but to me he's just turned it around. this guy has the right stuff. you can't argue. >> it was remarkable to see him sitting here on the show last week with randy winegartner after all they've been through. him versus unions. there's still a lot of union members that don't like chris christie but to see the head of the major teacher union having a constructive deal with governor christie. >> also, mark halperin, we were struck by the fact that when we were in charlotte the democratic head of the new jersey senate came running up, letting us know that he had his good buddy chris

christie on the phone. >> stylistically, donny is a great bellwether here of the fact that he has a way to break through. two big challenges. he has to get re-elected. it's not optional. he has to win re-election in a democratic state. he has to have -- perform in the state. he's turned the state around in some ways, but the storm doesn't help. still a lot of work to do on education, on some of the cities, on jobs, so if he's -- if he turns the state around economically in particular, i think he will be formidable. >> we also have breaking news in israel that we're following for you where a bus in tel aviv exploded this morning with passengers on board. information is still coming in. we have this video that's in to us. initial reports indicate as many as 10 people were injured. three people were taken to the hospital with moderate to severe injurie injuries. the bus was on a busy thoroughfare around noon local time there across from the military headquarters in tel

aviv. one witness describes the bus as completely charred. we're taking a look here at the video ourselves. officials say they are searching for a suspect who is believed to have planted the device on the bus. according to israeli officials, the last bus bombing was in 2004. this, as secretary of state hillary clinton is in the middle east trying to defuse the explosive outbreak of violence between israel and palestinians in gaza. she met palestinian president abbas earlier this morning and will sit down with egypt's president in cairo. we'll be following that as well. all right. coming up on "morning joe" -- former national security adviser dr. brzezinski. hardball's chris mathews, dan senor back on the show, and actor john o'hurley will be here with two special guests to preview thursday's popular national dog show. up next, mike allen with this morning's politico playbook.

but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> good wednesday pomonk to you. busy travel day. the last thing we needed was a large area of the country with heavy fog. i expect significant problems in the midwest. the northeast, clouds are moving out, just like yesterday in many areas. no travel concerns whatsoever for all of the busy i-95 cities. airports are off to a good start and they should remain that way during the day. of course be there can be some volume issues because of so many people. that's about it. nice forecast and the winds should remain light. your flight should be a relatively uneventful flight in the eastern seaboard. to the problem area, areas of gray, dense fog advisories all fwrats the springfield joplin area through st. louis back through chicago, indianapolis, all through portions of the great lakes. visibility right now very poor. in chicago and st. louis, we're down to a less than a quarter of a mile. so even for driving, that's a problematic time there. interstate 70 across the southern portions of the great lakes. airports are okay now, but once

they get up and running i expect significant delays out of o'hare early today and out of st. louis. rain in the northwest. you're used to it. i-5 should see minor issues. the big story this morning, traveling in illinois, wisconsin or michigan, give yourself a lot of extra time and be prepared for significant delays out of o'hare and st. louis airports because of the dense fog. you're watching "morning joe." i'll have updates on the forecast during the show. we're brewed by starbucks. .

welcome back to "morning joe." let's take a look at the morning papers. "the wall street journal," it's sad, a last-minute attempt to save the twinkie was unsuccessful after a court-ordered mediation between a bakers union and hostess fell

apart. the company's now going to ask for bankruptcy and going to ask a bankruptcy judge permission to shut it down permanently and move. that's going to leave over 18,000 workers unemployed and more importantly, going to leave twinkies off the shelf of american supermarkets. >> heard mika was brought in last minute to try to broker a deal. >> you know what -- >> sounds like two buyers may line up to save the twinkie. one of them a mexican company. i think the twinkie will live on. >> mexican twinkies? never. pat buchanan was right. >> usa. usa. >> i tell you what, how do you not do a deal to save 18,000 workers? >> a lot of jobs. >> yeah. i don't know that that's good for the union. >>ss wheres -- where's the president? >> that's a good question. >> 18,000 people out of work. >> they should have worked to transform the company and the food it makes and it would have helped the workers keep their jobs. it's too bad and that's a part

of it if you read the entire story. the health aspect of it. >> to take twinkie and turn it upside down, walk into it, obviously they've become the butt of jokes of everything unhealthy and come out -- >> doesn't a twinkie -- >> doesn't it down look like a twinkie right side up. >> a whole line of pure health stuff. >> fill the twinkie with broccoli. have it sticking out. >> people pay me millions of dollars for this. i'm giving to your audience for free. >> people are getting ripped off. >> "the los angeles times" the san francisco board of supervisors approved a ban on public nudity. >> first the twinkie and now this. >> what's happened to america? >> the city legislatures passed a law after residents and local businesses complained about the castro district's so-called naked guys. a group of men who gathered daily on the bus. >> you know what? this law goes into effect february 1st of the next year.

what is wrong, willie geist, what is dirty with what god has created? can i ask you that? do these people in san francisco not love god? >> the problem with public nudity, be this way at beaches too, it's never the people you want to be nude are walking around new. it's always the wrong crew. >> it's old guys. >> check your shame at the door. >> okay. >> all right. >> is that a gad point. can we have a weight limit to public nudity. >> some caveat. >> would that be discriminatory. >> i'm offended by this conversation. i don't know about you. >> so many things that were on the tip of my tongue i was going to say about those two, but i won't. the baltimore sun -- >> us two? those two. >> us two? >> moving on guys. kevin clash, the puppeteer behind sesame street's elmo character has resigned amid allegations he sexually abused underage boys.

sesame workshop says the controversy became a distraction to the program after 28 years with sesame street, clash's elmo character will be played by understudy. >> another market suggest, a "morning joe" puppet. wouldn't that be interesting. all of a sudden every once in a while just pops up. >> seriously. "the star ledger" rutgers will join the university of maryland as the latest school with a bad football team to join the big 10. rutgers has been a member of the big east since 1991. both teams are expected to be in the big 10 during the 2014 and 2015 academic year. the big 10 now consists of 14 schools while the big 12 consists of 10. the big 8 down to four. on the cover of this week's "parade" magazine. >> i think rutgers has had a good football team. >> oh, my gosh. >> i'm going to be on "morning joe." >> what is wrong with -- >> that's just -- that's just the prototype to be clear.

not the final puppet. it's a prototype. >> hello, want to talk politics because this is the place for politics. >> what's the spitting image -- >> willie, go to politico. >> i'm tired. >> chief white house correspondent for politico -- is mike allen. he has a look at the play book. mike, please save us this morning. >> it was in his pants. >> oh, my gosh. >> cut the mike over here and lock in on mike allen. you guys -- you got the first sit down post election interview with obama campaign manager jim mess siena, a guy called a genius after the way the obama campaign won the election. he talked about how republicans were surprised democrats had methodical, kind of corporate style campaign. here's a little bit of that interview. >> the best example that i heard was, friend of mine was in wisconsin the week before the

election and he called and let me tell you the story about why i think you're running a smarter campaign. i was told to knock on two doors. one was to chase an absentee ballot and i watched the person fill it out and we mailed it together, the second one an undecided voter i was giving a very specific persuasion script, had a great conversation and i'm sure that person is going to vote for us on election. one block, only two doors. that is using volunteer's times more wisely. honoring them, saying to them, every contact you're going to make is going to matter to us. and i think it allowed us to hit more doors and more effective doors than the romney campaign. >> mike, is it fair to say the obama campaign and romney campaign were running two entirely different campaigns at the same time? >> they really were. this house to house, person to person campaign by the obama crew changed forever how campaigns are going to be run. we saw a little example there. jim mess seina was talking abou

how doors remained important to them for all the attention their data mining and onlike techniques have used with all the ka cough fanny you get from the increased television commercials from outside groups, the person-to-person contact becomes more important. they're doing it more efficiently. the romney folks would get a list of doors to knock on and they would go and you would spend four hours and knock on 20 doors and maybe find two people home. the obama folks had as list of two people with a specific task when it did it. on facebook, something new that they did, they called it targeted sharing, and what they did there was give you a list of people in your facebook group that they thought would be obama friendly if you contacted them and said, click here to send bob a fact sheet or click here to send vicky a support the president message. and so you were hearing from people who are in your own

social network which turned out to be much more effective than even the old style of micro targeting where you would just reach out to people blindly that you thought probably would be your voters. >> i guess it's a question of the way they got the list. as you say, micro targeting. instead of throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall and seeing what stuck, they went in and identified which is an amazing thing, think of the size of the country, identified every person who might vote for president obama. >> right. and then they wound up turning them out an amazing stat about this election was those 200,000 new african-american voters that they got in ohio. they did it with an early registration program they called it the beauty and barber shop program. went to where these people were that wound up being their margin of victory in ohio. at the top you mentioned the corporate influence. at one point during this politico playbook breakfast jim messina was talking about advice he had gotten in an adviser he

said which adviser eric schmidt the head of google. he went and talked to steven spielberg out in california. you have the irony here of the democratic campaign being the efficient metric corporate consultant type campaign listening to advice from business. >> it's interesting. in that case obama was the ceo. they did another thing, they took a page from the advertising brand loyalty program, basically they stayed very focused on basically their buyers from the previous election, the voters that voted for obama and tracked them over the next four years as far as how their tastes were changing, wrb they were going, what was happening. the combination of using -- not just being in social media but using social media plus stand with their brand loyal consumers, brand loyalty program, that combination was effective. >> i talked to a guy that runs a very large global advertising firm last week. he said, you know, the most surprising thing to me is, that what the obama campaign did that

everybody's calling revolutionary, is what we've been doing at advertising, what big corporations have been doing for years. >> yeah. it is revolutionary that the obama team adopted that, but it's not like they made up new technology. >> no. what's interesting -- >> just to tap into politics. >> our agency got hired in '92 to work in the clinton campaign. what i found that's interesting, political advertising operatives, be a lot of ways in a different business than general advertising operatives, they've never been able to meld the two together effectively. to this ceo's point, it would be to me the next guy who runs, who really engages a generalist advertising in a meaningful way, not just hiring them on the peripheral, is going to really, really storm the fort. >> yes. >> the thing is, mike allen, this advertiser they talked to, said the romney people had come to them early, but they basically wanted them to give away a lot of their technology. they wanted to do it for next to

nothing. to in kind it. you go back and dig into the fec reports of the obama campaign, they spent millions and millions of dollars on data mining. millions and millions of dollars on this. this was their big investment while republicans were investing in 30-second ads that came out of 1996. >> that's right. and that was one of many ways that the romney campaign in retrospect looks to be penny wise, be pound foolish. related to donny's point, one thing jim messina told me in the politico playbook breakfast is that while other people were hiring political people to run their analytics, they were hiring technological people. they got kids who knew technology, but didn't know politics, sitting at the table talking with the political people and together, they figured out how to push the edge on some of these techniques. >> mike, quickly before i let you go, i thought it was interesting in the interview,

jim messina said the candidate they were most worried about initially was jon huntsman and were happy to see they didn't make it through the primary process. >> that's right. that was part of the reason they originally took him into the administration. and one of the reasons was, their focus groups were showing them that there was a big appeal for a bipartisan candidate. that's why david axelrod told me in an interview that one of the mistakes the romney campaign made was not pushing the bipartisan message earlier. a republican governor who had made things happen in a democratic state. they thought that would have had a lot of appeal. it's one of the reasons that chris christie has a lot of appeal right now. and in addition to that quinnipiac poll you showed, another poll that politico has this morning for chris christie, a poll for the new jersey republican party, showing that he's more popular in the state than ever. more popular than president obama who won the state big. >> really interesting interview that politico playbook breakfast. mike allen, check it out on the website.

thanks so much. >> happy thanksgiving, you all. >> same to you. >> up next, ncaa history was made last night. a sophomore from a division 3 school smashing the single-game scoring record. wait until you hear how many points he put up. >> he did not score as many points as you averaged in high school. >> that was high school. two different categories. >> seven-point shot -- >> small forward, yes. >> small forward who had -- he averaged 147 points per game. >> yeah. >> he owned the paint. >> true story. >> true story. look at this, people packing their patience, detroit. we'll be right back. wooohooo....hahaahahaha!

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all right. let's do some sports. we start with the nba, the new york knicks remain the hottest team in basketball. last night taking on the hornets in new orleans. first quarter, carmelo, spin move and the foul. he hit 29 points. second quarter knicks up six, carmelo gets raymond felton involved, hits the open three there. the knicks win big in new orleans, 102-80. they own the best record in basketball, 8-1. out on the west coast, lakers playing under new head coach mike d'antoni. skip ahead to the fourth quarter, kobe bryant to pau gasol. no that wasn't. that's dwight howard with the lob. l.a. up three, four seconds left, darren williams fires up a

three. does not go. that would have tied the game. lakers win their first game under d'antoni, 95-90. they improve to 6-5. the big game of the night last night, ncaa history made in iowa during a division 3 game between grinnell and faith baptist bible college. grinnell's 5'10" sophomore jack taylor set a new ncaa scoring record with, ready for this, 138 points. >> oh, my goodness. >> not the team. him. 138 points. his team won 179-104. the end of the night taylor was 52 from 108 from the floor. took 108 shots. made 27 three-pointers. according to espn he took 77% of his team's shots, amounting to a shot every 20 seconds. the previous scoring record was set in 1954 when bevo francis, remember bevo -- credits the man

upstairs, telling reporters prior to tipoff he met with teammates for a pregame deveegsal. nba players were reacting. carmelo anthony said the guy's arm must have fallen off. kobe bryant wondering how you get up 102 shots per game. >> he had a nice crossover. >> i don't mean to be too tough on faith baptist bible college but where's the "d.." >> run another guy at him and make somebody else beat you. >> after about 110 points you should kind of -- >> the head coach at faith baptist bible college has a lot to answer for this morning. >> zero assists. >> it's his night. >> it's a critical time of the year for the economy. holiday shopping can make or break the bottom line for small businesses. karen mills, the head of u.s. small business administration, joins us next live in studio. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ emily jo ] derrell comes into starbucks

with his wife, danielle, almost every weekend. derrell hasn't been able to visit his mom back east in a long time. [ shirley ] things are sometimes a little tight around the house. i wasn't able to go to the wedding. [ emily jo ] since derrell couldn't get home, we decided to bring home to him and then just gave him a little bit of help finding his way. ♪ [ laughs ] [ applause ] i love you.

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♪ the most important step we can take right now -- i think the foundation for a deal that helps the economy, creates jobs, gives consumers certainty which means gives businesses confidence that they're going to have consumers during the holiday season -- is if we right away say 98% of americans will not see their taxes go up. 97% of small businesses are not going to see their taxes go up. if we get that in place we are removing actually half of the fiscal cliff. >> that was president obama outlining his tax plans for small businesses across the nation. here with us now administrator of the small business administration karen mills. great to see you and have you on the show.

>> when the president says 97% of small businesses won't see their taxes go up, is he talking about businesses that file as small businesses? individuals that own small businesses, obviously, will see their taxes go up, right? >> no. he's talking about businesses that file as individual pass throughs. 97% of them will not see their taxes go up if we are able to, right now, get together and do what small businesses really want, which is make a deal. they want certainty. i've heard you say this actually, joe, be often, you know in the last year, small businesses want to know they can move ahead with get more sales and actually that's what i'm going to talk about today, which is, we have small business saturday. >> how do we define a small business? first of all, official small business designation. >> is under 500 people. but there are different categories. if you have 100 people and you're a manufacturer, you're small. but if you have 100 people and

you're an accounting firm you're kind of big or an advertising firm. >> yes. >> really the whole focus on small business is that they do create the jobs and i think we all know that now. so as we move forward, we want to make sure that they've got every opportunity right now. >> what's that percentage? what's the percent of jobs in america created by small businesses? the number moves around but it's pretty darn high. >> it's 64. so 64%, two out of three net new jobs come from small business. which is quite amazing. and what i also talk about all the time is that half the people who work in this country, own or work for a small business. so i say when i go to sleep at night i'm worrying about half the jobs. >> that's going to continue to increase also. you follow college kids coming out, they don't go to corporations anymore. they're starting their own. so 15, 20 years from now, that number is going to exponentially grow. >> you see corporations creating less jobs, small businesses --

>> yes. the best and the brightest, whereas 25, 30 years ago, you went to goldman sachs, you went to procter & gamble. today they're coming out and going to work on their new app. it's not the american dream anymore to rise in a corporation. >> no. but it's the original american dream which is you come to this country and you build a small business and then build a bigger business. that's america's secret sauce. other countries around the world actually come to us at the small business administration and they say, can we copy your program? can we copy your loan guarantees and small business government procurement because we need to build our middle class and we're going to do it by building our entrepreneurs. we do it auto mayically here. >> you hear from critics that health care reform, not just critics on the set here, but business owners frustrated with the administration who are concerned not just about the uncertainty, but the certainty that the health care reform legislation has put in place and the impact on them. is that a fair critique?

>> i don't think so. because all the small businesses i talk to and, in fact, in all the surveys, one of their number one concerns is access to affordable health care. and in 2014, we're going to have exchanges. so imagine that instead of begging a broker for a quote on your insurance, you can go to a marketplace and have people bid on your business. this is one of the fundamental things that people are getting excited about as these exchanges are coming up. >> well, but we do hear from business owners, i'm sure you do too, that are now contemplating after the election, i started certainly hearing from a lot in pensacola, i'm going to have to keep people under 30 hours and if i keep people under 30 hours, so obama care doesn't apply to me. >> hiring part timers now. >> i'm going to lose my best people, hiring part timers and it's only a matter of time before i go out of business and i can't afford the costs of what this new regulation puts on me. first of all, will you explain

to us, we keep hearing about 30 hours, 30 hours. explain that cutoff and secondly, what do you tell those business owners? why are they wrong? >> you know, i travel all around the country. every week i go to a different part of country. i'm with small businesses. i'm not hearing that. >> you've never heard that? >> i'll tell you what i hear. >> you need to talk to your staff and tell them to get you out of the bubble because we are hearing it all the time. >> every single day, here's -- >> i don't mean to be short. have you never heard that before? >> when i am out, absolutely what small businesses want to do is grow their business. and the other thing that they want, this is what i hear all the time, i want to provide health care. we are like a family here. the day that i get to provide health care for my workers, that was the day i called my business a success. that's what i hear. >> that is true. as somebody who was part of growing a small business, there's this paternal or maternal thing that takes over. >> taking care of your workers.

>> people working, killing themselves. >> how many employees did you have? >> when i sold the company about 1,000. when i joined 20. >> how much money did you guys make? >> me, personally or the company? >> no, the company. >> we made a lot of money. >> okay. i'm just saying, again, and i'm not saying it's right, i'm not saying it's wrong, i'm just reporting what i say we've all heard about this 30-hour cutoff and i'm concerned moving forward on this especially for small business owners. but i do understand, i do understand what you're saying also, if you own a small business f you love your employees, you want them, obviously, to have health care. and by the way, i think, you know, being a family makes a huge difference in growing a business. what -- do you know what the average cost is for let's say per employee if obama care? for a small business. >> right now, be small businesses -- i know you're focused on this, but i'll tell you, right out there now, for -- we are seeing momentum in small

businesses and for the first time in a number of years, we are getting small businesses who have a plan for the future. they're investing. they're coming to us for more loans. we just had a record year in loan guarantees. the number one thing they are looking for is more sales, more revenue. that's what they're talk about. that's why we have come up, you know, so strong, you've come up so strong, to help celebrate, particularly the small businesses on main street with small business saturday. it's a time for us to go back and say to them, yes, we care about you. >> so talk about that. talk about this saturday and why it is so important for small businesses who are, you know, working hard to grow their business? >> well, you know, we have two kinds of businesses here. we have main street business and some of these high growth, high impact ones. saturday is day for us to visit our main street businesses. and i want to know where you're going to go shopping. i know willie has a place, right. >> i shop on a plain street. >> our main street has an "e" on

it. i went shopping last year in maine at the farmers market and i bought blueberry jam for all my friends, home made blueberry jam for all my friends in washington. >> for christmas. >> yeah. >> one word in the '60s going to start a business, plast ticks, the word today puppets. >> stop it. >> i'm sure you could buy puppets in many of the small businesses. >> it's all very disit turning. >> unless -- >> this is important -- this saturday, go to main street and a local small business especially, and help them out. this is, you know, this weekend is, obviously, critical not only to their holiday season but to their year. >> and i know the administration has been working not only on getting a lot of loans out there, but loans to women and for that i appreciate that. women starting up. >> we are really seeing women growing their own businesses at a much faster rate than almost any other group. so we are up there to make sure

they've got some access and opportunity. >> and also doing a great job after sandy. trying to get small business people -- >> for more information on small business saturday shopsmall.com. to help small businesses recover from hurricane sandy call 1-800-659-2955 or logon to sba.gov/sandy. 1-800-659-2955. karen mills, thank you so much. >> we appreciate. we apologize for donny with the puppet thing. >> great business idea. >> we almost got through it. >> yeah. exactly. >> trying to thread a story line. >> let's not do that. >> msnbc's richard wolfe will be here on the set along with dr. jeffrey sachs and "time" magazine's rick stengel will be here to reveal the latest edition of "time." we'll be back with much more "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. into their work,

their name on the door, and their heart into their community. small business saturday is a day to show our support. a day to shop at stores owned by our friends and neighbors.

and do our part for the businesses that do so much for us. on november 24th, let's get out and shop small.

coming up next, former adviser to the romney campaign, dan senor is here with msnbc political analyst richard wolfe. >> dan. how are you doing? >> come here. come on now. nice to see you.

>> richard. >> how is it going? >> hey, buddy. good to see you. >> looks good.

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>> did you hear the good news, ladies and gentlemen? crack dealers are now selling twinkies. the hostess people that make the wonder bread and it really is a wonder, isn't it? that they can call it bread with absolutely no nutritional value whatsoever. they make your ding dongs,

ho hos, your twinkies, all your favorites, they are on strike and may go out of business. they are on strike and may go out of business. forget the middle east. this is what americans care about right here, going to go out. where are we going to --? >> welcome back to "morning joe." look at that sunrise at the top of the hour, a beautiful shot. what is that new york city. >> washington, d.c. >> mark halperin with us. joining the set, former adviser to the romney campaign, dan senor is finally back with us. >> good to be back. >> nice to have you back in the family. how are you? >> i'm good. >> we've missed you. >> missed you guys. >> dannor. richard wolfe is also here. >> you aren't nearly as excited to see richard. >> no. we want to get this out of the way so we can leave. richard wolfe is here. your work on the website is just great. >> thank you. check it out. >> looking good. >> morningjoe.msnbc.com.

there you go. >> what's up? >> nothing. hanging out. >> just hanging out. >> hanging out with the wife. >> we can talk about campbell bags. want to do that? >> i overheard the other day, she was planning our trip. >> great. >> christmas holidays we're going skiing and i overheard her planning to ship all the kids' stuff ahead of time. i said isn't that kind of expensive to ship ahead -- >> i bet she said you're going to -- >> not as expensive as the stress associated with flying for three and a half hours wondering if our bags will be there. >> or having to replace everything. >> exactly. >> because dan kind of messed that up last christmas. >> we move on. >> we have a lot to talk about. what happened? >> in the election? >> no. why happened with the blue jays this past year? what happened in the election? what happened? lot of republicans went into election night thinking they were going to win. we heard mitt romney did and ann romney did. >> paul ryan. >> paul ryan did.

did you believe on election day you were going to win? >> i thought between the end of the debates, the debate season and the onset of the storm, we had tremendous momentum. >> yeah. >> we saw it in our internal data, saw it in some of the external data, the public data and saw it on the ground. we would go to rallies, people standing in lines, thousand for hours. >> what happened? why was your internal data so flawed? why was it so wrong? >> i think a couple things. one, there is a -- some kind of systemic crisis today in the world of polling, i think on the right of center polling. the modeling was way off. how pollsters on the republican side -- although not just the republican side. gallup polling, rasmussen made similar mistakes. the understanding, the electorate looked like was way off. >> first of all, you know

rasmussen is a republican poll. >> gallup? i'm not letting anyone off the hook. i'm saying there is -- look the republican establishment needs to do an audit and figure out how our understanding of what the electorate looked like was way off. truth is, not just this election. we faced similar dynamics in certain parts of the country in 2010. >> we got poundeded in 2008, 2012. wasn't as much of a shock as last time and this time. we talked about this during the campaign, do you think -- as david from says accurately and i don't agree with everything that david says -- the conservative entertainment complex, these websites, talk radio shows, certain tv shows, that just tell their viewers day in and day out you're going to win, you're going to win, you're going to win. obama, he's going to lose and may be impeached before he's lost. you're going to win, you're going to win. don't you think that severely hurt the cause? >> i think it -- i think it

reinforced some of the worst overly optimistic instincts. i don't think that's why we lost. i think it was part of the problem. it was, you know, it created these unrealistic hopes and expectations. it's not why we lost. look, you could -- people -- reporters across the political spectrum, pundits across the political divide, believed this race was too close to call. i'm not defending the conservative entertainment complex, but i'm not saying they're the only ones that believed romney had a real shot at this. anyone covering our events between the end of the debate season and onset of the storm believed that romney had some momentum. we can debate the degree of momentum, the depth of the momentum, but there was a sense that romney had begun to turn the race around. >> i hear you on that. what do you think -- and i think the conservative entertainment complex dynamic is a part of this -- what do you think the bigger problem is? >> look, first of all, i think there's a tendency after these

races to award the winning side with the label of being the smartest guys in the business and they were genius and the losing side, you know, the biggest doorknock knobs and screwed everything up. watching some of these republican officials now. >> right. >> trashing mitt romney. everyone's going out trashing mitt romney. >> i agree with you on this. >> it is stunning. these are -- i will tell you, ice just talking about this with richard, the friday night before the election we were in cincinnati, tens of thousands of people, you could feel the energy, 100 top tier surrogates at the event, i'm back stage with some of them, won't mention their names, talking about like he's reagan. the debate performances, the best of any republican nominee and presidential history. this guy is iconic. talking about him because they believed he was going to win in four or five days. some of them were already

talking to our transition, to position themselves for a romney cabinet. >> they're the first to jump. >> i won't say who they are, they were on television, the body was -- it was unbelievable, five, six days lately, absolutely eviscerating him. >> that's the bigger problem. i want to go back to the first thing you said, there's this temptation to think that the winning side is the smartest. i actually think no, romney should have done better. >> we picked up 400,000 votes -- >> the whole thing should have been a better match. >> if we had picked up 400,000 votes in a handful of swing states -- >> don't go there. mitt romney would have been a genius. >> you're doing the john kerry if we picked up a basketball -- are we going to say if we picked up a mow to speed cross way attracted baja -- >> dude -- >> the winners are not the geniuses that the press set them up to be and our losers and fellow republican officials are not like the reject disaster

campaigns -- >> man -- >> they're labeling mitt romney as. i'm struck by the unleashing on him. >> first of all -- >> i am too -- >> first of all, mitt romney, if he had gone quietly into that dark night, would not have been pounded as hard. >> of course. >> but mitt romney comes out and doubles down on his 47% remarks, when he confirms everybody's worst suspicions, including small government republicans who were distrustful of huge corporations. >> yeah. >> he doesn't help his cause. >> no. >> i believe you are right in that he doesn't help his cause. however, be all these guys, let's -- i'm talking about the ones i'm most struck by are the republican office holders who were -- i'm not going to. i'm not -- >> hold on. republican governors. why don't you say republican governors. >> republican officials who were in discussions with the transition about a cabinet position. >> yeah. >> many of these officials i might add, chose to stay out of it. they chose not to run. >> can i -- >> and let me -- and they chose to stay out of it because they believed that this race was

unwinnable. >> point taken. we got a lot to get to here. >> it is part of the bigger problem. >> i have to though, i have to take exception with you not saying the obama people aren't the smartest guys in the room. >> very smart. ran a fantastic campaign. >> they are the smartest in the campaign. they are what ken mehlman was to 2004. light years ahead of the time, light years ahead of your team. >> i totally agree that they ran a fantastic campaign and they're very sophisticated team. i felt the same way in 2004 about ken mehlman. i'm simply saying, the chorus and the peanut gallery would have been sijing ken mehlman and karl rove in 2004 had ohio gone slightly different way. >> what do you think of chris christie? >> i think he's a fantastic governor and he's been on the front lines -- obviously the disaster relief he's performed well. >> are you glad he did what he did during the disaster relief? do you think he went overboard? >> i'm not going to get into chris christie's handling -- he was dealing with a crisis. a difficult crisis.

the last thing i'm going to do is judge someone who's managing a crisis. >> very good. >> in real time. >> that is the correct answer. >> i agree with you. i think the response to mitt romney, whatever his mistakes. >> yeah. >> the response to mitt romney just piling on is not unseemly but unhelpful to the republican party. they have to do serious thinking about why they did not connect with the growing, changing nature of this country. so your two cents, what does the republican party need to do on policy at this point, just a couple things, to position it better next time around? >> first -- look, i'm no longer professionally spinning for mitt romney. okay. let me just -- can i -- because it answers your questions. i think he got a couple things right and they have been eclipsed by the pile on. okay. one, he took on as a candidate entitlement reform in a way that no national candidate from either party has. ever. he didn't just touch the third rail, he hugged it. not only did he advocate a serious medicare reform agenda

he did something everyone said he shouldn't do including the public establishment, pick paul ryan. everyone was saying, you know, we're going to try to attach the ryan budget to mitt romney and then the democrats were thrilled. steve israel, the chairman of the dccc put out a fund-raising e-mail saying that paul ryan. they planned -- >> however good you think that is, it didn't work. what did he -- >> let me address that. he actually won the seniors vote. i think he has opened up the possibility both for president obama and congressional republicans, and you saw this in this poll that came out, center left organization, talking about people are open on entitlement reform in a way they haven't been in the past and i think romney/ryan broke through a little bit on that. other policy areas. look, republicans have to do a better job over the next couple years, particularly the republican think tank community, has to do a better job of thinking through about how to talk about middle class economics and go into the r and d business. i'm a supply sider, i'm as much

of a believer in, you know, pro growth supply side economics as anybody, but the anchor for every one of our debates about our economic future, cannot simply be about marginal tax rates as much as i support keeping marginal tax rates low. we have to spend meaningful time over the next several years developing a policy agenda that reflects our principles but is modernized and i understand there's a range of issues and the demographics we need to deal with, young people, obviously immigration, i've been very, you know, progressive on immigration issues for years. worked on the issues in the '90s. republicans need to do a lot more there. but unless we address the core issue of middle class economics with innovative ideas. >> women. this is not a minority question. losing women by a mid margin, especially reproductive rights. >> let me stop you there. republicans, this is important,

we can have the debate about this, republicans won white young voters, they won white women. the majority of the electorate -- >> the fact it continues to be a minority problem for the republican party. >> do you think the problem is young or single people or women? i think the point you're making you won many female demographics. >> the kinds of issues that surfaced very strongly important in terms of value to the particular, reproductive rights, abortion, never mind the extremist stuff about rape, the party is not where clearly according to exit polls where people are when it comes to abortion rights. most or all cases the majority thinks it should be legal. is that -- do think that there's something on reproductive rights that the republican party needs to think about there? >> i think we have two issues.

one, we got invested, our side got invested in an idiotic debate about contraception during the primary. was not pushed forth by mitt romney, but put forth by some of the other folks, leaders in the party, including one running for president, that took on a life of its own and allowed it to feed the narrative you're talking about, this war on women and that hurt us. and obviously when we have top tier, you know, nrsc recruited senate candidates, actually fomenting a discussion about rape, this is not healthy. >> no. >> this is not. >> in the areas i talk about all the time. >> the candidates they recruited they both won on their own. >> the establishment got behind them. they were targeted races. the establishment -- >> one thing more disturbing i think for republicans, mark, really quickly is the fact that mitt romney, he can't just blame it on mitt romney. mitt romney outperformed most republican senate candidates.

>> yes. in most places. >> what does that say about the republican brand? >> it needs some working over. go back to immigration. obviously marco rubio has been outspoken although he failed to come forward with a big plan during the campaign. who are the other republicans you think can or should step forward and be partners with the president on economy xrooe hensive immigration reforce. >> i think ted cruz. lindsey graham and john mccain. i think people like paul ryan nf the house. people who come out of a sort of reagan-esque, kemp-esque pro growth camp within the republican party. i think there's a big opportunity for them to weigh in on the debate. >> when people talk comprehensive reform the big issue, a big issue, probably the biggest, is there a path to citizenship for people who were here. governor romney was firm on that point. did he leave the party on immigration in a bad place? >> i think the party has been suffering on the issue of immigration for years.

i think the problem transcends mitt romney. i don't think his position helped the -- helped the republican problem but it predates him. the failure of mccain/kennedy was something republicans got blamed for. in the 1990s there were some really nasty debates and very few, you know, very few republican voices willing to stand up on the side of immigration reform. we've been suffering -- look, there is a nativist, isolationist protectionist strand within the republican party that has been very active in republican politics across the country for about 20 years. i'm sure joe saw it in pensacola in the pan handle. it's across the country. and we have failed to deal with it. so i think romney's position added to it, but it was not the root of the problem. >> it's hard to find people in politics who are true to the people they commit to politically, and their convictions consistently. you are. that's why we like you so much. i don't agree with anything you

say, almost anything you say -- >> she always has to put that. >> and even this interview -- be. >> they won't let it go -- >> it's completely -- it's consistent and honest and transparent. you look for that in people. it's hard to find it. dan senor, really great to have you back. >> we love you, dan. since we love you, we're going to let you stay on and talk to mika's dad, dr. brzezinski. >> i'm going to be able to get schooled. i'm going to get schooled. >> i know. >> this is going to hurt. >> you're going to let me. meaning you don't want that. >> i'm going to just sit back and watch. >> oh, gosh. >> sit back and watch, dan. >> and then -- okay. i'm nervous now. dr. zbigniew brzezinski is coming up along with dr. jeffrey sachs. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 this morning, i'm going to trade in hong kong.

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you know, he's coming to my house for thanksgiving. >> that's great. >> i am? >> no. >> no, dan.

not you. >> i'm -- >> you're invited. >> no. joining us now from washington -- >> the last time they invited a neocon to thanksgiving dinner it did not turn out well. that was eon but another story. >> he's doing just fine. >> great supporter of the romney campaign. >> great guy. >> like father, like son. >> thank you for saying that. >> not really. >> except not. >> security adviser for president carter -- i'm sweating dr. zbigniew brzezinski, author of "strategic vision, america and the crisis of global power." and here with us on set, the director of the earth institute at columbia university, economist dr. jeffrey sachs. >> good morning. >> good to have you both with us this morning? >> hi, dad. >> hi, mika. >> we understand you will be taking your life into your own hands in the coming days and actually letting mika cook your thanksgiving dinner. >> i think mika is beyond cooking. she merely inspires the menu. >> oh. really? are you going to have a clef.

>> don't you play into this. no. >> she drinks champagne while she talks to her multitude of chefs. >> exactly. >> i'm cooking it. me. i am. i'm going to try to do a better job at the last time i made an attempt at this. >> just in case, i'm bring something sandwiches with me. >> a very wise thing. dr. brzezinski, turning to obviously some very serious issues that you know an awful lot about. working on most of your life, middle east is blowing up. secretary clinton is over there trying to patch things together. the un, everybody involved. egypt trying to broker peace also. what does the president need to do to move this process forward? >> he needs to get engaged. he needs to get engaged very seriously. i was struck this morning by looking at the papers, at the consensus expressed by "the

washington post" editorial, which is very good, sometimes i disagree with them, but it's very good today, and a couple columnists on the op-ed page, and they all say the same thing which i endorse. namely, this is a real challenge to get at the heart of the problems. if we simply patch this up, somehow or other, between hamas and israel, be if we still patch it up a little bit between the palestinian authority and israel, we'll have a repetition in no time flat. but in the meantime two things are happening in the region, which are not going to be reversed easily. u.s. influence is declining, arab radicalism is intensifying. and that's not a good thing either for stability or the future of israel. >> how does the president engage most constructively to try to reverse at least one of those two trends to stop the radicalization of -- of muslim elements across the middle east? >> engages by abandoning the

myth that a peace settlement has to wait until the day that the israelis and the palestinians can compromise themselves. the fact of the matter is, and that's a lesson that's 30 years old now, left to themselves, the israelis and the palestinians will never settle. the israelis are too strong to make concessions and compromises. the palestinians are too weak and too divided to make concessions and compromises. it has to be done from the outside with overwhelming encouragement and pressure. pressure. from the party that has the greatest say still with the israeli and the palestinian side and that's the united states and by the person who has the authority, the president. obama started well four years ago and then he just dropped it. i think now he has another opportunity. if he waits like clinton until his last eighth year, he's got -- he's going to get nothing done and the region will

deteriorate because it is deteriorating year after year. >> dr. sacks? >> it's been great to see you. why do you think president obama dropped it? after starting -- >> he dropped it for a variety of reasons, some of them pretty good. he was overwhelmed by the domestic crisis, first of all. i think that kind of sacked his energy and bogged him down and it reduced his sense of freedom to act. but beyond that, he might have been surprised by the tenacity of netanyahu's resistant and undermining of obama. he kind of folded up and he can redeem himself. he missed an opportunity, a very serious one, but he has one again and that's the great thing about his situation right now. he doesn't have to worry about the next elections. he doesn't have to worry about fund-raising for that election. he doesn't have to worry about specific constituencies. all he has to worry about is the american national interests first of all and the good future

of the region and that's also very important to us. >> dr. sacks, what is your -- what's your take on the president's performance? do you agree with dr. brzezinski, that he's been more hands off over the past four years? >> yeah. i think that we could see that israel wasn't making any moves, any concessions, the settlements process which has been so frustrating to get the two-state solution was just going forward completely unabated, and so we get these explosions -- they're terrible. this blood letting is absolutely devastating. the solution has been in front of us for decades, but it does require that kind of pressure to get it in place. >> richard wolfe? >> i have a question for dr. brzezinski. i know that the only successful role model is actually your old boss, president carter, and the camp david accords, which were unthinkable at the time but personal presidential involvement, i get that. but at this point, there is a unique former president who is

on the stage who could do something if president clinton was the special envoy here, would that be an effective surrogate or does it have to be the sitting president at this point in terms of bringing these sides together? >> well, you know, one doesn't rule out the other. the negotiating process will take more than two weeks, so you need someone with hands on. i think former president clinton would be terrific. but you need to have presidential engagement at some stage early on, and then in the middle and then to consummate a deal. the point is, pressure has to be applied consistently. at the same time, we must not underestimates the allows we have. the moderates are the majority among the palestinians. the moderates are the majority among the israelis. the moderates are the majority among american jews. we have seen the polls coming out of the elections. the president has to tap all of that potential support. use it. but also be very firm in

applying influential pressure on those who stand in the way, and there are such people on both sides, and particularly on the stronger side, which is the israeli, the problem is the prime minister and his foreign minister. just look at their record, look at what they're saying and look at what they're trying to do. so the contest is a serious challenge and will require perseverance, strategic imagination and a sense of the historical stake that's involved here. and i think only the president can do that. >> dan senor? >> i can't believe i'm sitting here going to defend the obama administration. >>wouldn't do it. this is opposite day. >> i actually think the president's, dare i say, i've been critical of hs his handling of the middle east and specifically the u.s. relationship with israel, i think he's handled this well. i completely reject this is commitly motivated or about american jewish vote or the election.

there's one time he doesn't have to play to the american jewish community it's right now, and i think he recognizes that israel was unprovoked, that they are dealing with a government in gaza that the u.s. and the europeans all label a terrorist organization, 12 to 15,000 rockets sitting in gaza built up over years, israel's in the last few weeks been subjected to over a thousand of them, i think his assessments is, it's a really complicated issue. of course he's horrified by the deaths on both sides, but the idea that israel can't respond the way it's responding, is completely unreasonable. and i think he is handling it well and that he's focused on egypt. egypt is -- morsi is the lynchpen here. if there's any stabilization between israel and hamas over the next several weeks, egypt is going to have to enforce it because the hamas and the islamic jihad and others in gaza are trying to get weapons and those weapons are often supplied through egypt and morsi has got

to make a decision here. is he going to be the muslim brotherhood ideology or going to be practical. if he's going to be practical he has to enforce this border. if not, dr. brzezinski, any deal they reach will be torn up within a couple weeks once the rockets start launching. >> dr. brzezinski? >> i think that's almost comical because that's really just taking one-sided issue -- >> dan, i told you that. >> stunning. >> stunning -- >> focusing -- >> hold on. that's my label. don't take my label. >> stunningly superficial. >> that's my label. >> you're comical. >> we can take our show -- >> almost comical. >> almost. >> i'm sorry. go ahead, dr. brzezinski. >> if we are expecting the egyptians to become surrogate policemen for the israelis in policing hamas, we're whistling in the dark. everybody know -- look at the papers this morns morning, if the hamas problem is going to be solved it has to be solved in a larger context, including the lifting of the blockade,

lifting. blockade and regularization of hamas' status, including some international contact with it. no one is talking seriously about the egyptians undertaking the role of the egyptian policemen while the blockade goes on. that's just not a fact of life. we have to address the larger issue beyond gaza and hamas and that is the totality of the palestinian/israeli relationship. the region is becoming more radical. it's not a good arguery for israel's future. there is a stake involved here which is, in fact, in the interest of the israelis. this is where the president has a role to play. >> let's move on. dr. sachs, the president made an important trip to asia. talk about what challenges we face over the next four years there and how you rate the president's performance? on this trip? >> well, they are in this pivot, as they call it, a little bit clearer what they're doing, the

economic growth is in asia, the world center of gravity of the world economy is in asia. i think the president's there for obvious reasons, and that region is becoming more important. i think he gets high marks for the trip, and american presidents are going to be there quite a bit in the future. >> dr. brzezinski, what is your -- what's your take on the president's trip to asia? was the symbolism of the president of the united states making his first post-election trip to asia important? >> yes. i think it's important, but ultimately, what is at stake is the longer range american/chinese relationship. it can either be a historically unprecedented relationship of some reasonbly rationale partnership between the world's two major powers, or it can be unfortunately a repetition of what has happened in the course

of the last century. the rivalry becomes hostile sti, hostility gets out of hand and becomes dangerous for everyone concerned. the stakes are enormous, but the key issue is how do we structure a key relationship with the chinese. here we have to be very sophisticated and think a little bit of how england played its role in europe during the 19th century. involvement but not direct engagement. not engaging itself on the ground if you can avoid it and balancing the various powers, but not ganging up against one particularly. >> all right. dad, so dan senor, check with campbell, i'm thinking 2:00 tomorrow. >> we'll be there. >> it will work. >> i still have the invitation. >> that's great. >> dr. brzezinski, you can meet our kids too, two little neocons. >> actually, dan, he has one o neocon of his own. >> he does. >> it's going to be fun. see you tomorrow. >> dr. zbigniew brzezinski, thank you. >> thank you, dr. brzezinski. >> good to be with you. have a nice holiday. >> thanks. >> all right.

>> hey, so -- basically that's dr. brzezinski saying you're not invited. if you vet an invitation. >> he would love it. actually. >> so, dr. sacks, we would love for you to come back soon. and talk about china. obviously we talk an awful lot about it. >> they have the new leadership. >> right. and the new leadership. >> so this is very important moment. >> yeah. >> and they're still growing, they're still growing at more than 7% er year, even though they have slowed down a lot, their slow down is still miles beyond what the -- >> yeah. >> the mature economies, the u.s. and europe are accomplishing right now. >> dr. sacks, thank you. dan senor, thank you as well. >> good to be here. >> thank you, dan. >> really good to have you back on the show. >> coming up "time" magazine tackles the myths behind america's organic food craze and

asks whether we can eat healthy without breaking the bank? rick stengel will be here to reveal the new issue. "morning joe" will be right back. bob, these projections... they're... optimistic. productivity up, costs down, time to market reduced... those are good things. upstairs, they will see fantasy. not fantasy... logistics. ups came in, analyzed our supply chain, inventory systems... ups? ups. not fantasy? who would have thought? i did. we did, bob. we did. got it.

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♪ busiest travel day of the year.

don't want to be in st. louis. pea soup fog this morning. quarter mile or less visibility. airports are opening up and today the busiest travel day, we're supposed to see the arch actually right in the middle of that scene. the arch is only about a half mile away. no shot of even close to looking at that. that's the story. the weather travel story this morning. if you're driving, milwaukee, all the way down to chicago, areas around anywhere near lake michigan, all the way down to indianapolis, st. louis, to central missouri, dense fog. as you just saw the visibility in st. louis down to about a quarter mile or less. same with chicago. green bay is now zero visibility and really dense fog. this will last probably until about 10:00 or 11:00. and also i would love to tell you we have airport delays but we're not getting information in. the government's faa website is now down. great timing on that one by the way. i-5 some issues with some rain. that's about it. much of the country once the fog is gone, will have no travel concerns this afternoon. very careful this morning driving through the foggy areas

in the midwest. coming up next on "morning joe" -- a special treat. you remember him, jay peterman from "seinfeld," actor and host of the national dog show, john o'hurley, will stop by the set to preview tomorrow's canine competition and rumor has it he's brought along a few of his friends, little aber in and stella. stay tuned. "morning joe" right around the corner. [ male announcer ] it's that time of year again.

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fortunately we've got ink. it gives us 5x the rewards on our internet, phone charges and cable, plus at office supply stores. rewards we put right back into our business. this is the only thing we've ever wanted to do and ink helps us do it. make your mark with ink from chase. [ tylenol bottle ] me too! and nasal congestion. [ tissue box ] he said nasal congestion. yeah...i heard him. [ female announcer ] tylenol® cold multi-symptom nighttime relieves nasal congestion. nyquil® cold and flu doesn't. i can't wait for this conversation. joining us now, "time" magazine managing editor rick stengel here to reveal the latest issue of "time."

donny deutsch and jeffrey sack back with us here. >> let's make this personal here. >> okay. >> your family, you have a track star and your family every weekend goes to whole foods. >> now -- okay. >> and they spend some money. >> yeah. >> good bit of money because they want to get the healthiest, most organic food for your daughter because she runs a lot. >> yes. >> may be wasting their money? >> what? >> rick stengel is here talking about it. >> this is the joe scarborough diet. >> i love it. >> cover by dr. oz. it's our second annual what to eat now cover. just in time for thanksgiving. basically oz makes the point it's the anti-food snob diet. people who shop and eat organic, localvors, i don't think i've said that word before, i think i'm pronouncing it correctly, that food technology that's happened since clarence bird's eye since the 1920 invented

flash freezing of food, frozen food, canned food has the same nutritional food as organic and local food. >> are you serious? >> frozen food and canned foods have basically the same nutritional value as organic food and locally grown food. >> is that -- what's the science behind that? >> the science behind that -- >> that's fascinating. >> flash frozen food preserves for the most part all the vitamins you get in absolutely fresh food that was picked an hour before. >> so can i ask you -- >> not to say you shouldn't eat organic or locally grown food. food technology is improved now, for less much you can get the same nutritional value. there's not much degrading of vitamins. >> the science is morphing. a greet side by side as far as supermarket brands and gourmet market and you take peanut butter and the peanut butter gourmet is a better jar, the packaging. >> there's a great thing, canned

foods can be winner, beans are loaded with fiber, watch for the additives. >> look for sugars and things that get in the way. >> he says look, obviously, you know, spinach that you pull out of the ground and put on your plate is going to be good. you know, canned spinach or frozen spinach is pretty much the same nutritional value but they often add sodium, sugars, fats. >> is it as -- >> it's the 99% diet. that's the other thing we call it. >> is buying organic versus nonorganic as ridiculous as buying water? >> i don't think so. he doesn't slag organic food. organic food is fantastic. it's a more democratic small "d" democratic sort of diet whereby -- >> you're laughing because i absolutely love this. give peas a chance. frozen peas. >> i almost put that on the cover. >> and -- great artwork here. >> pretty good. >> and carrots too. i'm sorry, go ahead. >> forget where we were.

>> this is amazing. olive oil -- >> right. basically organic food is great. but the -- it doesn't have as many more advantages over frozen food and canned good as we would have thought. >> this gourmet thing, this is amazing, supermarket olive oil $5.49, extra-virgin olive oil $25.29, basically no difference. minimally processed. >> that makes me mad stew this is all marketing. it's comical, actually. >> possibly false marketing. >> dr. sacks, you know -- >> we got to talk about this. >> we want to talk about fiscal cliff but this probably speaks to you as well because obviously you've talked about nutrition worldwide. a lot of times we see a great disparity between what's happening in inner cities in america and rich suburbs. >> and our food environment. >> do you have any take on this? >> first of all, i think what was said was that the processing is where a lot of the dangerous stuff can be added. it's not exactly whether it's a freeze dried or whether it's fresh, but how it's processed.

there have been recent studies showing the processed meats, that's the really worst kind when you have a lot of nitrates, putnitrates put into the food for preservatives and other things. that's where the biggest dangers are. the other thing, organic is complicated. it can taste good but we can't grow the world's food supply that way. it just doesn't add up. and so we have to take that into some balance, also. >> so let's talk about the fiscal cliff. you have an article on that. >> our economics correspondent wrote about the fiscal cliff and she has an interesting take on it. the difference in the view of wall street versus washington about the fiscal cliff and that actually is counter intuitive. wall street takes a longer view of the potential damage of this than washington does which is looking at the next election cycle. so wall street is looking at this as is this the first kind of sign that we could become

greece if we don't have an agreement on the fiscal cliff? whereas folks in washington are saying, and maybe rightly. i'm curious to see what you think, maybe it isn't so bad to go over the cliff for a little while. it'll get everybody's attention. it won't damage the economy that much, although she says it'll take the stock market down 5%, and then come to a deal after that. >> and mr. sacks, i remember you coming on after the last failure of washington to respond and an absolute crash in consumer confidence and the challenge that posed before. >> well, i think the lack of confidence was that there was no clear solution. that's why we're back at the cliff again. and now i think it's very clear, it was clear last time, we need more revenues. no matter how many times the republican party has said we don't. we're going to need higher tax rates, no matter how many times the party has said we don't. the huge majority of the public supports that now.

rasmussen showed 60% support for ending the breaks at the top. >> what else do we need other than taxing the rich? >> we need a framework so you can look and see the deficit is coming down to near zero. that's what we need. >> where do we get the money on the spending side? >> well, first, on the taxes in addition to raising the tax rates, what we're going to start hearing much more about is the unbelievable tax gimmicks. i just want to say, but, joe, one thing about that, if i could. >> where is the spending coming from? >> i want to say one thing about that that's funny. go google and some of our other biggest companies have been hiding profits for years from the irs. with the irs' approval, putting it in bermuda and so forth. now europe is saying, because they use european con duets, okay, we'll tax that. no, that's money that should be taxed by the united states. stow if we continue our gimmicks

we're going to lose it to europeans. >> so we have to raise rates and we have to cut loopholes. what about on the spending side? where do we get the money there? >> we're going to have to get defense under control and spend these wasteful wars have added trillions. that's one place. we're going to have to get the health care costs down and right now our health care costs are between 50% and 100% higher than in any other country. and so we have this great opportunity to reduce health care costs, but that requires pretty deep reform that we've ducked so far because that requires going after the private health insurance industry which has been reaping huge profits. so we have to get the health care costs down. that will save a lot on the budget. >> okay. thank you very much. and, rick, let's eat now. the food snob diet. >> i do actually think -- >> that should have been the cover. >> maybe that should have been the cover. >> give peas a chance.

>> i'll consult with you guys the day before. >> that's nice. that's good stuff right there. >> i have to talk about it here. >> we'll be right back. >> have a great thanksgiving. you won't find a "home rule" on every corner, a "stag provisions" down every block, or a "hugh and crye" in every town. these are the small businesses of america, and all across the nation they're getting ready for their day. hundreds of thousands of small businesses

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governiod morning. time to wake up, everyone. it's time to get ready for

thanksgivi thanksgiving. let's take a live look at new york city. okay. good. back with us on set mark halperin, and i can't believe you let him come back. >> honestly it makes no sense. that was disturbing. and people on twitter -- >> how is that working? >> not working at all for you. >> child like, gracious. i didn't know you were going to quote shakespeare this morning. go ahead. what do we begin with? >> we begin with the economy. the markets will look to rebound this morning after stocks finished relatively flat yesterday following a new warning from the sevcentral ban about the fiscal cliff. fed chair ben bernanke urged lawmakers to reach a deal to avoid the automatic spending cuts and tax increases. bernanke said going over the fiscal cliff would pose a substantial threat to the economy. according to a new study the fiscal cliff could give 98% of americans higher tax bills, the bush tax breaks along with some

by president obama would both end. as a result the working poor would be among the hardest hit. a tax policy center analysis showed a married couple making about $30,000 a year would on average go from receiving a $15 tax credit to owing $1,400. >> wow. >> yeah. that's probably a reason to try and get something done. >> maybe we will. maybe we will. >> you would think. >> or maybe we could think about 2016. >> we could do that as well. how are you doing, willie? >> i'm doing well. >> two weeks after the -- >> thanks for stopping by. >> i'm doing well. >> you know, just two weeks after the longest, most expensive and exhausting election in u.s. history troubled eyes are turning to 2016 as speculation begins over the next batch of candidates that are lining up to run for president. >> who could that be? i know it's going to be a surprise. >> i know it is, too. we're moving past these

dynasties. >> exactly. >> that have ruled politics for decades. republican up-and-comer jeb bush jr. says he'd love to see his dad run for president, and rand paul says he's going to follow in his pop's footsteps, too, and of course hillary, too. do you have to be related to somebody who has been president of the united states or run for president of the united states to do that yourself? >> i think that's the names. here is jeb jr. take a look. >> is your dad going to run for president? >> i don't know. no comment. i certainly hope so. >> is it i don't know or no comme comment? >> i hope so. >> wait a minute. you said i don't know. no comment. and i hope so. which are all kind of contradictory. >> exactly. give you the full loaf of bread there. >> you know, mika, word is that jeb is already lining it up for 2016. >> all right. so another bush.

jeb jr. also weighed in on fellow floridian marco rubio, another potential 2016 candidate. earlier this week he passed on a question about the age of planet earth calling it one of the greatest mysteries. jeb jr. admitted that it was a strange question but called rubio's response, quote, a kind of head scratching type of answer. >> it was. i fealty like he was walking the line. >> he is an expert on hip-hop. >> is he ever. he went deep in that interview about hip hop. went back to the '80s, and marco rubio knows his stuff. not that that's a key voting issue. >> he's already shown to me he's not going to get the tone of the new republicans. when romney came out with the phone call about the gifts and jindal was like, boom, this is not the way to talk. this is not who we are. and even then he was straddling

the fence. well, i'm not quite sure what he said. >> it did he use that voice? >> what voice? >> because that's really nice. that's just not the future. people who talk like that do not own a future to the republican party. >> msnbc says they have a place for politics, and here i am trying to shift the conversation. >> to what? >> heavy political analysis, and it just will not -- the tenor today will not allow that to happen. >> i disagree with that. >> i don't see it happening. i see voices -- i hear voices -- >> joe, back on the jeb bush thing, though, we already know the attack on him. we can't go back to the bush years. they've already started that. don't you think if you take his name off he's an ideal candidate, from florida, moderate on some issues, immigration. he would be the guy if you took

the last name away. >> he would. that's great irony when he first ran for 0 governor people said he would never be running for governor if his last name wasn't bush. he would have run for president and won the nomination this year if his name wasn't bush. americans are going to have to decide do they want the 41st president to be a bush, the 43rd president to be a bush and the 45th president to be a bush? that's a steep climb. >> can i say something about this rubio thing? >> yes. i would love for you to. >> there's one area democrats are far ahead of republicans. >> science? >> science and technology. no, it's doing this this thing that democrats failed to do in 2000 to stop george w. bush which is really early on using the left wing to define anyone who is thinking of running for president as quickly as possible in negative terms. on twitter, cable, the internet, they're just all over this rubio thing. they want to control his public image in a negative way. and they did it this cycle, too. they hurt romney early on. and a matter of pure politics, very effective.

rubio is not full time thinking about running for president. he's out there dabbling. people on the left will be defining anyone who looks like they might be strong. >> he dabbled strongly. he went to iowa right after the election. and his name is out front and he should be able to answer the question, how old is the earth? >> if your name is a possibility in four years, any slip-up like that, they're going to be all over you. >> so why is he so cautious? he is cautious to a fault. there were screwups during the campaign. he was overly cautious. there was romney's screwup last week. he was overly cautious. he's asked about science. he's overly cautious. if we ask him his middle name, will he tell us what it is, or will he be overly cautious? why is this guy walking on eggshells? we just had a nominee that did that. >> he doesn't have enough. he's a confident guy but he's smart enough to know that he's out of his experience and

comfort raining on some of this stuff right now. >> so he didn't answer the question of how old the earth was, why? because he thought it would upset some evangelical voters? iowa? >> my guess. >> christie was a prosecutor. this is a guy who made decisions, went after bad guys. has a very task oriented guy versus a guy who is a state senator. not the same kind of stuff. what does he bring to the table at this point? >> speaking of bringing things to the table, mika, chris christie. he brought something to the table here that some of us missed. >> i know. it was weird. he was doing so many things at once. t.j., can you get this? >> over my head. >> he's moving so fast and he's ta talking about how, you know, people -- people want politician that is do a lot of different things. >> right. >> do you have the david letterman thing? watch this. this is shocking. >> did you see him yesterday? he was testifying before a senate subcommittee?

we have exclusive footage. here is governor chris christie. >> you be the republican governor and one of the reasons why you have 30 republican governors in america and why we're the only organization to add republican strength, the house lost members, we hoss the presidency, we wept up from 29 to 30 republican governors is because people see us getting things done like this. getting things done for people. and that's what you have to emphasize and talk about. i don't think this is a core philosophical examination we have to go through. what this is is about doing our jobs. >> he was on "morning joe. "that's where he was. >> when you were interviewing him. >> it was distracting but he is so good at multitasking that i was locked into those eyes and i'll tell you what, mika, people in the new york city area were locked in on those eyes, too. >> yes. the northeast recovering from hurricane sandy. new jersey governor chris christie is receiving praise for his handling of the storm.

according to a quinnipiac university poll, 36% of new york city voters say christie did the best job responding to the disaster. 22% say president obama's response was strongest. not everyone is pleased with christie's performance. "the new york times" report suggests some republicans still resent the popular governor for doing his job. they said the governor's praise of the president hurt mitt romney's chance on election day. romney advisers refer to data showing a high number of undecided voters chose president obama at the last minute citing his handling of sandy as the major reason. >> come on, man. >> very quickly about christie, how he's acting, him going on "snl" last weekend, becoming part of the culture, being loose, making fun of himself, is the complete opposite of what rubio is doing. that's the way you run for president. you don't run for president, you become part of the dailies. he's already there. >> that poll, by the way, was in new york city. so they have the governor of a

different state, they voted by a 3-1 margin over their own mayor. >> a man most people don't loik. >> i don't know if that's true. >> that's pretty shocking. new yorkers say that he more than doubled andrew cuomo. >> tripled their own mayor. >> tripled their own mayor. >> joe is thinking of the david patterson invitation. >> he has a 90% approval rating and cuomo has an 85%. new yorkers, even if they don't like christie, they respect him. and i think that's important. >> everybody seems to. >> you have. >> turned around in a positive way. >> i said he's too much of a bully to ever capture the national heart, if you will, but, to me, he's just turned it around. he has the right stuff. you can't argue with it. >> it was remarkable seeing him on the show with randy weingarten after all they threw him versus unions.

there's still a lot of union members in the state who don't like chris christie. to see the head of the teachers union having struck a deal with governor christie shows that he is effective at least in some ways. >> a great far reaching bill there. and also mark halperin, we were struck by the fact when we were in charlotte the head, the democratic head of new jersey senate came running up letting us know that he had his good buddy chris christie on the phone. >> stylistically donny is a great bellwether of the fact he has found a way to break through. one is how to get re-elected if he's going to be a national player. he has to win re-election in a democratic state. and the other thing he has to perform in the state. he's turned the state around in some ways but the storm doesn't help. they still have a lot of work to do on education, on some of the cities, on jobs. so if he turns the state around economically in particular i think he would be formidable. >> all right. we also have breaking news in israel that we're following for you where a bus in tel aviv

explode exploded this morning with passengers onboard. information is still coming in. we have this video that's in to 0 us. initial reports indicate as many as ten people were injured. three people were taken to the hospital with moderate to severe injuries. the bus was on a busy thoroughfare around noon local time there. across from the military headquarters in tel aviv. now one witness describes the bus as completely charred. we're taking a look here at the video ourselves. officials are searching for a suspect who is believed to have planted the device on the bus. according to israeli officials the last bus bombing was in 2004. this as secretary of state hillary clinton is in the middle l east trying to defuse the explosive outbreak of violence in gaza. still ahead "hardball's" chris matthews joins the conversation. and later, forget the thanksgiving day football games. we've got our eyes on another sporting competition taking

place. host of the national dog show, john o'hurley is standing by in the greenroom with a pair of man's best friends. >> really? >> yes. he'll give us a preview of tomorrow's big event. but first here is bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? joe and mika's best friends. funny. good morning, everyone, we are looking at, unfortunately, some people unable to get to their holiday destinations because of the fog. already heard about a couple dozen cancellations going in and out of o'hare airport and from st. louis all the way up through o'hare into areas of wisconsin. everyone is just locked into fog right now. visibility, this is measured in quarter miles, half miles, three-quarter miles. north detroit two miles, not too bad. o'hare and st. louis, milwaukee and green bay, all three of these major cities and everywhere in between, it is very dense this morning. delays in and out of these airports are running about two hours right now and they just

started. we're probably only got going to get worse. i hope everyone can get to their holiday destination but it will look difficult. rain in the northwest. that will improve during the day today. here is how the forecast looks. once we get rid of the fog in areas like st. louis and chicago, it will be a warm, beautiful day. but the problem is it's not going to be until at least noon. east coast, no problems whatsoever. just a little bit of light rain this morning from san francisco up interstate 80 into the sacramento area. and then your thanksgiving day forecast, not dealing with too much fog out there. not like this morning. we should see beautiful weather on the eastern seaboard. macy's day parade. a few late day showers, areas like chicago, st. louis, down into arkansas, possibly oklahoma. but overall it looks like a very nice thanksgiving day. all the problems we had this morning are fog related. ah, the crystals on top of the christmas tree at the rockefeller plaza. tis the season, everyone. with the spark miles card from capital one,

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here is a flash from the associated press, two press who were with president kennedy say he is dead. there is no further confirmation but this is what we have on a flash basis from the associated press. two priests were called to the hospital to administer the last rites of the roman catholic church and it is from them we get the word the president has died, that the bullet wounds inflicted on him as he rode in a motorcade through downtown dallas have been fatal. >> on november 22, 1963, president john f. kennedy was assassinated in the motorcade passing through dallas.

this year thanksgiving once again falls on the anniversary of that dark day. joining us now from washington the host of msnbc's "hardball," chris matthews. chris' book "jack kennedy l: elusive hero" is out. >> chris, jfk, you've been fascinated with jfk throughout your adult life. and it continues. talk about it. >> i was watching yesterday when you talked about the coincidence of thanksgiving. it's been in '73, '79, '2001, 2007, and 2012. you were the first person to sort of point to the poignance of it or the irony of it because we don't think of those two dates being in any way similar. one day we love. most of us our favorite holiday and then there's this -- we're looking at the pictures of the day we just couldn't believe at the time. i was in college when it

happened and nobody believed it. we got out of history class and watched cronkite all afternoon. it's a story about people say 9/11, they'll never get over it. people who remember that day never got over that. it's always in there. mo moynihan, the senator, once came up to me and said we never got over it. chris, you never got over it. and he was bringing me into a priesthood of the people that really felt that. >> you, of course, your book calls him an elusive hero. i'm struck by the quote his close friend said about him. sounds so much like what people say about reagan still. i never knew everything about him. no one did. different parts of his life and thoughts were seen by many people but no one saw it all. so elusive. >> you know, in fact, he lived his life as we all know, his infidelities even, he would hang out with certain guys who shared in that sort of world. he had another set of friends who were absolutely faithful to

their wives, you know, like charlie bartlett and red fay and he would spend so much time with them and ben bradley they had no idea this other life he was leading. he compartmentalized everything. jackie had it right when she was still in shock and invited white up to cape cod and that rainy night, that dark, rainy, friday night, and she said, you know, my husband wasn't this glamorous, playboy good looking guy. he was still the kid who was the little kid alone who was always sick. he had the last rites three times in his life before dallas. he was always sick. he had a bad back, a bad stomach, he thought he had leukemia. his parents didn't visit him in boarding school. he was a lonely child. what they found themselves in was reading. they found themselves in history and heroes including churchill who became his great hero. and it's so true of so many of our great people that they are inspired not by their parents but by the books they find and

the heroes they find all alone reading at night or reading when they're sick. this is a nice story. that was the jack kennedy we liked, the dreamer, the hero worshipper. >> and that jack kennedy was shaped by all his time in bed, in hospitals, these pictures of him now where he looks like a political sex symbol, a political god, but he grew up the scrawny kid that everybody said was scrawny. they all thought he might die one day, he was so frail. he always had his crutches with him. and that time in bed, that time in the hospital, that's when he read. that's when his personality was shaped, wasn't it? >> yeah, in fact, you just hit upon it again. if you look at a picture of him with nixon in '47 when they were freshmen together, nixon is taller than him. and then you see the picture, there they are down in florida after the election in '60 and

he's taller than nixon. he got healthier. nixon is watching him grow in so many ways, i don't think he could believe what happened to this guy. he used to feel sorry for him as this scrawny guy that wasn't going to make it actually when they were young congress people together. and then he comes off as this young adonis and nixon didn't know where he came from. >> chris, it's donny. the book is amazing. the 22nd is my birthday. my 6th birthday party -- >> that's another dark spot on thanksgiving. >> to me he's the most fascinating individual of our lifetime as a human being. was he a great president as far as actually what he accomplished? >> let me tell you. he had three years before he was killed. if you go in terms of inspiration, did he lead people into politics? i put him in the same category as hemingway. think about hemingway and the way he lived and how he made us all want to be writers. all of us wanted to be writers

because of hemingway. he is the american writer. and that power of leadership is what kennedy had. he made all of us growing up in that generation. everybody wanted to get into politics. before jack kennedy went into politics it was stiff guys with three piece suits. it was bob taft. it was nixon. it was guys that were really boring and sexless and who wanted to be one of them? and then kennedy came along and said, no, this is the right thing to be doing. like hemingway did with writing, this is the thing you have to be doing if you want to be a god. this is it. and women later. and i think that really is what a lead er is. and of course he got us to the moon. he created the peace corps. he was the first real civil rights president. as my son michael turns out, he's a real history buff, he took the segregationist party and made it a civil rights party. he did that with mrs. king and then with ole miss and of course with obama. he had to integrate personally with bobby. he did a lot of that. he also, to me, inspired people to go into public life and said public life is where it's at.

it's not business. it's not sports. it's public life. i think we all agreed that was probably the one rhett lent reality of our lives. he's still there as the symbol. look at bill clinton and all of these guys inspired to go into public life because of him. >> mark halperin? >> chris, beyond his brothers, the two subsequent generations, nobody has risen to that level. do you see in the second generation after president kennedy others who may still rise up and become big national leaders? >> well, i don't see it yet. i think the new joe kennedy in congress will do well. he'll be there for life if he wants to be. he may become senator for massachusetts. patrick has had problems with addiction and he's dealt with them. he's happily married with a child. he's gotten through it. it was good for him to get into private life. i thought maria shriver could have done something besides be first lady of california. i thought she had a lot of

talent. incredible charisma. i'm not sure i know anybody. one thing with the kennedys is a lot of possibilities. i tried to interview ethel kennedy one day and if you want to know what she is really like. remember "terms of endearment." she is impossible to nail down. she says -- i pulled out my tape recorder and said i want to interview you. oh, no, no, no. even though she invited me over and picked me up at the ferry. she gets me on a boat with 65 kids. that's how many there are on that boat. there was the son steering the boat with his feet. it's quite a show. all the kids jump in the water and swim. they are still that lively. i don't know. i can't pick a winner. there are so many options. so many options. >> chris, congratulations on the great book. it's hard to make the comparison over the years between politics now and politics then, but where would you put kennedy on the

scale of liberal, moderate conservative in today's politics? >> well, it's very -- richard, that is the great question and i think he was a cold warrior in terms of foreign policy. he was intuitively anti-communist. it meant authority for the top and no individual freedom at the bottom. he instinctively wanted to have a good time in life. enjoyed life. he couldn't imagine being controlled by a state so he hated the idea of communism and that was real with him. the thing that drove him, though, that he was most proud of, was to avoid a nuclear war. not just for the cuban missile crisis but working with the british ambassador and mcmillen of the british prime minister and really working towards a treaty. the first treaty with the soviet union. what he really wanted to do was end the arms race with the soviets and he was able to do with limited test ban treaty in august of '63. that's what he said was his number one accomplishment. so he was a cold warrior who, like reagan, wanted to end the

chance of the world blowing up. so put it together. he was a smart cold warrior who knew the goal of the cold war by its nature was to avoid a real war. that's what the cold war is about. the long period of patience and strength that led us, and smarts, on both sides. i mean, khrushchev helped avoid a nuclear war. he played his part. and i think it was working to avoiding this horror that could have come about. in foreign policy, i would say he was a smart and enlightened warrior. domestically i think he was a democrat who was doing what democrats were expected to do with medicare. he was pushing that. with civil rights. i think he became more emotional about civil rights towards the end and bobby certainly did. so i would call him a regular democrat domestically on civil rights, foreign policy, a warrior who wanted to avoid a nuclear war and i think he did set the standard. >> chris, before you go, i wanted to ask you about this rutgers eagleton poll that has

governor chris christie's approval rating at 67% among registered voters in new jersey up from 48% in october. also other numbers coming out this morning saying that people in new york city seem to prefer his handling of sandy to any other politician. >> yeah. well, the man has style. and i think most people in new jersey would say, as peggy noonan said in her column right before the election, he will be popular in new jersey. he won't be so popular in republican party circles because he did seem to help the president there a bit. although nate silver and others don't think it was the reason he won or anything. but i do think he has style. and i know in philadelphia where i keep in touch, and south jersey, they love him. regular people in my family. they're very regular people. they like him because that attitude, as we say in philly, attitude, and the fact he is able to tell somebody on a college show it's none of your business where my kids go to school. people really like that attitude. they're sick of politicians being so politically correct and careful.

if you can occasionally show real personality, they love you. that was romney's problem. the sense the lights are on but is there anybody there? this it big guy in so many ways, you know he's always there. spontaneity. leaders have to be three things. they have to have a mission, a motive in life, we'll find out what his is, they have to have passion and spontaneity and he has spontaneity. you wake him up in the morning, he'll tell you something. and i think that's what people want to have in a politician. >> mika, this poll has a plus 23. they have a plus 23 sampling of democrats and he's sitting at 67%. >> and he's pro-life, too. don't forget. that's the ticket of admission to a republican nomination for president. if you're not, you're not. if you are, you're a possibility. >> chris matthews, thank you. the book is "jack kennedy: elusive hero." >> thank you. happy thanksgiving. >> thank you, chris, so much. happy thanksgiving to you, too. okay.

up next stella and little abner brought a friend with them, acclaimed actor and host of the national dog show john o'hurley joins us next with a preview of tomorrow's big competition. a hybrid? most are just no fun to drive. now, here's one that will make you feel alive. meet the five-passenger ford c-max hybrid. c-max says ha. c-max says wheeee. which is what you get, don't you see? cause c-max has lots more horsepower than prius v, a hybrid that c-max also bests in mpg. say hi to the all-new 47 combined mpg c-max hybrid.

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normally it's the football games that garner all the attention but there's another competition featuring nearly 2,000 athletes that we'll be watching. it's the national dog show. and joining us now, the host of tomorrow's event on nbc, actor john o'hurley, also with us little abner and stella. they are ambassador dogs for the ronald mcdonald house. >> this is stella right in front of me. she is lighter. little abner, well named except for the word little which he is not. >> they are so well behaved. >> one of the oldest french breeds. their job is to do a lot of the work in the vineyards in france and to guard the vineyards which i sympathize with because i would lay my life down for a vineyard. that's happened many times. >> these are good dogs then.

tell us first of all how the competition is going to go tomorrow, what should we be watching? >> tomorrow we'll be beginning our 11th version of the national dog show present ed by purina. we garner an audience every year now 20 million to 25 million people. an astounding tradition. you know, it's a great piece of programming. thanksgiving is the day everybody is together and when you think about programming television you have to have something that has something for everybody. >> good dog. >> whether you're 5 or 95, there's something for you. 173 different breeds, nearly 2,000 dogs all competing for best in show. that's one of the most prestigious titles that you can win in the country. >> now these dogs are not competing tomorrow. >> these actually are very special dogs. we are talking about these tomorrow. they are therapy dogs and these are our therapy dog ambassadors from the philadelphia ronald mcdonald house. they do wonderful work with the kids that have cancer or other conk illnesses and, you know,

kids who are there in the hospital there's nothing too familiar or friendly. every now and then a dog will stop by, leap up in their bed and bring a smile to them. >> isn't your job a rescue dog? >> he has gone into a nursing home and a rehab center. and we first slipped him in without papers, is that okay to say, but we got them. and he's really quite perfect. it really helps people get better. >> it's amazing what dogs can do not only in the area of direct patient care. someone reach out for physical therapy to do something, something they don't ordinarily do. >> but it's the connection. >> they round out the better part of our lives. >> my old cnbc show, which you were kind enough to do a behind-the-scenes at the dog show. let me put this delicately. the people, most of them, are insane. is that fair to say who are behind the dogs?

>> is that a delicate way? >> this is their thing. they go from show to show to show to show every week. on the one side it has a professional atmosphere to it. on the other side it's a family oriented thing. there are rvs in the lot. it's a wonderful atmosphere backstage but because the philadelphia show, the national dog show presented by purina is one of the last remaining bench shows, all the dogs, the owners and breeders stay backstage so there are 10,000 to 15,000 people there and you can learn about dogs. it's a great interactive and educational experience. if you're looking for a dog, it's a great place to talk. if you want to get to know about the breed that you have, it's the best resource. >> is that a confirmation on the insanity? i didn't get a straight answer. >> it was -- >> listen, this was a level of -- it was beautiful. i'm a dog person. >> you want to talk about arrogance come watch me in the morning.

i cornered the market on it. >> it's great. the kashg it terse are great all around. >> they are, yes, absolutely. >> i'm watching the dogs go around, if i'm looking at the dogs or the trainers. >> it is fascinating. the world of presenting dogs. there are professionals but they have to be invisible. sometimes they're not. >> they're kind of not. >> the idea is to present the dog rather than to get in the way of the dog. >> but to be defensive of the behavior that we're having fun with here. you have to command the dog that is with you and the way you walk, the way you are with it, what messages you are sending, all helps in the dog -- >> this is 125 pounds of dog and a lapdog. >> yeah. >> to command this in the ring without tearing a rotator cuff is an active, physical exercise. >> the way you walk and if you keep that in mind -- doesn't

look just funny. >> there is a discipline to it especially when you get to the larger dogs. >> absolutely. well, this is wonderful. the 2012 national dog show airs tomorrow. thanksgiving day. >> over 20 million people watch this. >> i'm watching. it's on nbc. >> 70 million dogs in america. we're just one of the tributes. >> starts at noon right after the parade. john o'hurley, thank you so much. >> how nice to be with you. >> thank you so much. >> i can't wait. up next business before the bell with cnbc's brian shactman. [ lane ] your anti-wrinkle cream is gone...

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black friday has become a major event that it now even has its own holiday special. >> shouldn't we say grace. >> i'll do it. today we give thanks for the food on our plates, for happiness and health, and for the amazing low prices at our favorite chain stores where we will stampede and trample one another to save a few bucks on cheap crap we will give to people we don't even like that much. amen. >> do not get in my way tomorrow or i'll cut you. amen. >> if you touch him, i'll shove an ipad right up your [ bleep ]. >> that's just terrible. >> jack has a little peanuts and plays it. >> i hope he doesn't speak like that. >> he doesn't. that's not the way i remember it. >> i don't remember anything like that, charlie brown. >> maybe i need to reacquaint myself. >> let's do business before the

bell. >> wah-wah-wah. >> to brian shactman for business before the bell. brian, what are you looking at? >> reporter: hi, guys. quick quickly on that holiday thing, they better hope black friday sales are good. there's 33 days in between thanksgiving and christmas. three more days than last year. a lot of people think that consumers are going to wait until the very end so they'd better get sales early on. ben bernanke, the market went down after he spoke yesterday in new york. to parafreii paraphrase it, he can't do everything. he's not going to. no greek debt deal. angela merkel in germany says you might have to wait until monday on that. jobless claims on a wednesday because of the holiday week, down 41,000 but still a little distort distorted because of hurricane sandy. so keep that in mind. and, also, we do have thanksgiving, guys, and could you guess the average price for a turkey dinner? anyone taking a guess?

>> for the entire dinner? >> for the turkey? >> reporter: just the average -- the whole dinner, including the peas and sweet poe tatoes and cranberry sauce and everything else. >> $78.42. >> reporter: $49, up 28 cents from a year ago and everything is down except turkey. turkey is up 3%. >> does that include premium malt liquor. >> reporter: no turkey water estimates. >> i had added in a case of malt liquor in mine. that's why i said $78. mika, of course, got the champagne, the gold goblets. >> and some cider. >> and some vodka. of course. vodka shots. that got yours up to $100. >> doesn't every thanksgiving include several shots before the tu turkey? >> if you're a brzezinski. >> brian shactman, thank you. happy thanksgiving. >> have a great thanksgiving. ♪

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did you hear the good news? the hostess people make the wonder bread and it really is a wonder, isn't it?

that they can call it bread with absolutely no known nutritional value whatsoever. they make your ding dongs, your ho hos, your twinkies, all of your favorites, they are on strike and may go out of business. they are on strike and may go out of business. forget the middle east. this is what americans care about right here. on this day before thanksgiving while other shows do big cooking segments on how to prepare for the holidays, we here on "morning joe" have a different take on things. >> yes, we do. >> we have a culinary correspondent. >> is that what we're calling lewis now? >> you put on the white jacket and he showed us how not to cook your bird. take a look. >> the leaves on the trees have all changed. hand turkeys adorn the walls of every kindergarten in america. and your mother-in-law can't

wait to tell you about the new romance novel she has been reading. there's only one escape, they tell you it's too dangerous, but you're going to do it anyway. because it's delicious. >> this is a bad eidea. >> drop and run, dude. drop and run. >> this year fry smarter. >> wow. >> thank you, louis. that was helpful. everyone is ready for thanksgiving. >> can't burn your turkey.

i don't know if you would fry your turkey. >> you double deep fry it. >> a very good friend of mine, her husband, john, fries the turkey in a little barrel. >> that sounds dangerous. turkey, duck, chicken. if you are one of the millions of men

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what's he doing? >> needy. whatever it takes. >> listen -- >> what is going on? >> i can hide things in this jacket. that's why i have it on. >> welcome back. mika, what did you learn? >> i learned that it's thanksgiving. we'll see you on friday. i'm thankful for my family at home and my "morning joe" family here at work, and i'm thankful for you all, too. >> what did did you learn, mark? >> happy holidays. >> i learned louis has doughnuts in his pocket. >> richard? >> i learned that in the words of the great dr. brzezinski dancing is almost comical. >> and we'll see tomorrow. >> i'm stunningly superficial. >> stunningly superficial. >> that was myhe